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Searching for Births

Discussion in 'General Genealogical Queries' started by jorghes, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    I find the help I gain from people on this forum invaluable, which is why I keep asking questions! (Plus my father had a query from my aunt about the family history information held by my grandmother's cousin, so it reminded me of a hole I have in their shared family history.)

    I have looked for any record of the birth of my ancestress, Hannah Isaacs, and have hit a wall (a brick one). I have searched on Ancestry, FMP and even JewishGen with absolutely no success. Unfortunately Hannah was born prior to civil registration, so that isn't an option (if only...), what is left is to find her on the 1841 census, which she should appear on and which I have had little luck finding an appropriate match.

    So what I know about Hannah:
    She was born in approximately 1825/26 in Brighton, Sussex (according to the 1851 census return, and her Australian children's birth registers - which give a mother's maiden name, age and birthplace). She married her husband Samuel Collins, in 1850 at the Hambro Synagogue, at the time she was living in Finsbury. She and her husband appear on the 1851 census living in St Giles and the Fields and St George (Samuel lived in St Giles when they married) - (Piece: 1509; Folio: 333; Page: 4).

    Their eldest two children, Catherine (1851) and Charles (1853) were born in London, they sailed to Australia on the Gypsy Queen in 1855. (Her three other children Joseph (1857), Anne (1860) and Esther (1862) were born in Sydney)

    According to her death certificate from 1889, her father's name was a Samuel and her mother's Kate (her son Joseph was the informant). And it suggests that her father's occupation was an undertaker. Her death register also gives her birthplace as Brighton (I love Australian certificates).

    Subsequent trawling of Trove also brought up a death notice for her brother, David Samuel Isaacs for 14 Jul 1887, placed in a Sydney paper by Hannah, after he had died in London. I used that information to locate David Samuel Isaacs in London and gathered the following information about him:
    Born in approximately 1819, married in Brighton to Ann Stone in 1845, living in London on the 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 censuses with his (possible) 12 children. Death register for 1887 was also located.

    I do not have David in the 1841 census either, and (hopefully) if found, both David and Hannah are at the time, living with their parents, presumably in Brighton.

    So are places that I can search for David or Hannah (or both) that I haven't looked?

    I have looked for records of a Samuel Isaacs, undertaker in the records I can find for the Brighton Jewish community, but haven't had much luck. (Most of these are accessible through the JewishGen databases)

    I suppose, with Samuel Collins being a Dutch Ashkenazi Jew that there is a possibility that Hannah's family were also Ashkenazi, but I don't want to presume anything (i.e. I am open to the possibility that Hannah's father and mother were not Samuel and Kate).

    Anything that may help me find another record of Hannah, her brother David and possible parents would be greatly appreciated. (I also considered a change of name, as Samuel Collins' parents anglicised the mother's maiden name, but it didn't seem to fit "Isaacs").
     
  2. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Have you seen the David Isaacs aged 20 living in Edward Street, Brighton in 1841, with a group of apparently unrelated people of similar age (piece: 1121, book: 2, folio: 4, page:1)? His housemates are all 'born out of county' whereas David is born in county which obviously fits with a Brighton birth. Also fits with him marrying in Brighton 4 years later. Could this be your David? Doesn't get you any further tracing Hannah of course, but may indicate the family were no longer together in Brighton in 1841.
     
  3. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    I did find him, but I wasn't sure whether or not that was David or not. There is also a Hannah living in London in 1841 with the birth year of 1922 (age of 19 and birth place as Middlesex) with a Solomon Isaacs, ten years older (possible brother?) but no sign of an applicable Samuel Isaacs, possible father. (671/1/33/17) I suppose it's not unheard of that the 1841 census had a birthplace incorrect.

    I have no evidence that Hannah was married prior to her marriage to Samuel Collins.

    Might be interesting to see if I could find those people who were living with that particular David Isaacs ...

    ** I just went and dug out David's marriage register entry to see if one of the people on the 1841 census with David could have been a witness (nope, witnesses were Josias Jones and Alfred Morris), but I noted something else... David's address - 131 Edward St, Brighton.

    Looks like that one is David, so Hannah is not with him in the 1841 census.
     
  4. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Good to hear that's now cleared up, thanks to your lateral thinking!

    You mentioned that Hannah was living in Finsbury at the time of her marriage. Did you see the Isaacs family in Upper Queen St, Islington, Finsbury in 1841 (664/9/8/10)? This family (which goes across 2 pages, Hannah is on page 11) is headed by a Samuel Isaacs, greengrocer (aged 60), with Maria (50), Elizabeth (20), Hannah (15), Catharine (15), Isabella (14), Edward (11).

    Now the mother of the family is Maria not Kate and Samuel's occupation is not an undertaker, BUT all of them down to and including Hannah are born 'out of county' with the last 3 children born in Middlesex. The age rounding over age 15, and the fact Hannah is listed above Catharine, suggests Hannah's age is 16-19, so fits with a birth around 1825, and the location seems to fit with Hannah's area of residence at the time of her marriage. What do you think? Could this be your Hannah?
     
  5. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Star

    There is a similar place reference in 1841 (E&W)Census (Queen Street, Islington (Finsbury borough) London & Middlesex) for an Hannah Isaacs aged 15 born 1826 (birth place not given). There is also a Samuel Isaacs aged 60 born 1781 (again no birth place) plus a Maria Isaacs aged 50 1791 (ditto). Then (presumably) siblings Elizabeth 20 1821; Catharine 15 1826 (same birth year as Hannah); Isabella 14 1827 & Edward 11 1830. The three latter children are shown with a birth place of Middlesex. Census reference 664/9/8/11.

    They appear with Whitehouse family members, Carter & Cunniffe. I found them in FMP by the way.

    I also discovered in Ancestry someone with a Public Tree researching the same family and living in Sydney, Australia with the user name Keyodd. His details reveal he is 87 years of age and married to his lovely wife (unnamed) for 62 years. He had plenty of Collins family details but none fore Hannah. I have to believe you will know to whom I refer and can I say, perhaps related?

    Hope some of that helps.
     
  6. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Thanks again Bob and Helen - I have come across the Hannah aged 15 in the 1841 census with the parents Samuel/Maria before back when I first was searching. I thought that this could be the correct Hannah, and that the name of her mother on her death entry was incorrect (always possible).

    That lead me to a marriage of a Samuel Isaacs and Maria Whaley - which seems to correlate with that particular 1841 census entry.
    I can't remember why I discounted them, but something didn't add up - perhaps that Hannah appears with her family in a different census where mine had already left the UK? I will dig around and try to remember why I removed them from my tree.

    Honestly, I think I got to a point where I thought it wasn't leading anywhere, and wanted to restart with the information I had from the start - namely the father/mother from the death register and the information about her brother David. That's not to say that this is the incorrect Hannah, it could very well be the correct one and I have to go back and add them all back in!

    There are a few people around Ancestry that have information about the Collins side of my family - a few who also appear on the DNA results for my father and grandmother. I haven't come across kegoold before, however his Collins side is a bit dodgy - lots of duplicates and misinformation. (Looks like his Collins links are relatively distant).
    However, the one thing that all Ancestry users searching for that family have in common is that they're all missing the information for Hannah!
    There is a accessible family tree for the Collins/Van Kollem side on JewishGen, which is the basis for a lot of trees.

    I will have a look and see if I can trace Samuel & Maria's family in some successive censuses.
     
  7. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Quick research results:

    Been searching for the Hannah with parents Samuel/Maria - looks like this Hannah (referred to in some records as Hannah Whaley Isaacks), married a Charles Linington in 1843 in Lambeth. Backed up by a 1871 census return with the mother-in-law, Maria Isaacs, living with the Lenington family in Battersea, Surrey. From that census return, this Hannah's birth year is 1822. There is also a 1851 census return for "Hannah Whaley Linington" in Westminster St Margaret, birth year 1822, birth place given in Middlesex which also matches this Hannah.
    There is also a marriage entry in London for Samuel Isaacks and Maria Whaley from St Anne Soho, for 1811, which would match the adjusted Samuel (1781) and Maria (1788)'s marriage, and records matching two of the other children - Elizabeth Jane Isaacks (1819) and Edward Whaley Isaacks (1829) including marriage and baptism records.

    So unfortunately it looks like this wasn't the correct Hannah, other than the corrected birth date (1822), but also because of marriage records and census records past when my Hannah had moved to Sydney.

    Perhaps I should do the same sort of research for other Hannahs that appear in the 1841 census...
     
  8. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    There is a Samuel Isaacs (aged 50), undertaker, with wife Catherine (aged 43) in the 1841 census living in Mitre St, St James Dukes Place, City of London (721/5/25/19). No Hannah with them, but 5 other children (aged 20 down to 2), with a gap between the first two where Hannah would fit. In view of Samuel's occupation and his wife's name, this might be worth looking into?

    Plus, there is a Hannah Isaacs of the right age living with another Isaacs family (headed by Lazarus Isaacs) in the same area of London - I wonder if it could be your Hannah staying with a relative, maybe uncle and aunt?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  9. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Ooh, I think you might be onto something Helen!

    Thanks, I will most definitely look into that one, as I could see this being a bit of a brick removal on my wall (and the wall of all the others who are looking around for Hannah). Plus, the youngest (Milia) might be young enough to have a civil birth registration - also the second youngest “Large”, but I think he is less likely - which might then gift me with a maiden name for Catherine.
    (May get me distracted enough to stop trawling through my numerous automatic LC entries for errors... serves me right uploading so many.)
     
  10. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Research Edit:

    I am still encouraged by Samuel Isaacs, undertaker and wife Catherine as a possible addition to my tree. However, while I think it's possible that Lazarus may well be a sibling or relative, unfortunately it looks like he has a daughter called Hannah born in the 1820s - on the 1851 census, we have Lazarus still in St James Dukes Place with his wife Elizabeth, and daughter Hannah, birth year 1829, and her husband, Godfred (??) Levy and their 8m old son Leon.

    I am still encouraged to think that perhaps Hannah simply wasn't with her parents on the 1841 census, perhaps the one I found earlier, with Solomon may be yet another brother.

    I think I have found Samuel (as above) on the 1851 census, with some of his children (Esther, Harriet, George & Amelia), unfortunately his job has changed to "fruiterer", but I am not completely discouraged, because when I checked again, that was the occupation given on David Samuel Isaacs' wedding register entry for his father - Samuel Isaacs, fruiterer. Perhaps there wasn't enough work for numerous undertakers? (Or perhaps he had simply gotten too old!)
     
  11. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Thanks for the update. Looks like things are coming together for you - the occupation of David's father on the wedding register fits in very nicely! I also notice that David's occupation in 1851 is 'orange merchant' so the fruit trade obviously runs in the family.

    Did you trace the birth of Samuel's youngest daughter Milia/Amelia? A birth of Amelia Isaacs was registered in Apr-Jun 1840 in City of London, mother's maiden name Hart. Seems a bit late for the 2 year old in 1841, but OK for Amelia aged 11 in 1851.
     
  12. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    I'm keeping my fingers firmly crossed!

    I did have a look and found the Amelia Isaacs with a mother surname "Hart" - a brief cruise of the initial Ancestry hints and Member trees (I like looking to see what the general consensus is before I go haring off in my own direction), looks like this is the accepted version of events, and does seem to match.

    It does look like the majority of this particular Isaacs family migrated to New Zealand in the 1860-1870s including the patriarch, Samuel, daughters Harriet and Amelia and son, who I think is "George" (but even with a birth date of approximately 1840, doesn't pop up a register), there is a Woolf with Isaacs/Hart parents born in the right area, but I am unsure if/how it could have become "George".

    It is interesting that non of the member trees that show have Hannah or David Samuel in their trees at all, which I suppose is not too surprising given that if they are part of the family, they didn't appear with them in the 1841 census nor any later censuses.

    Might be useful to get that Amelia Isaacs birth register to see how well it's lining up.
     
  13. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Update:
    Ordered a couple of Isaacs/Hart birth registers to see whether or not the information matches current known information about the Samuel I'm looking for!

    I am also going to see if I can find this family on the JewishGen website to see if I can find any further information that might inform my knowledge/search or something which removes them from the equation.

    I do find it interesting that if this is Hannah's family, that none of the other children were born in Brighton, it would just be Hannah.
     
  14. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Quick trawl of insurance records for Jewish people in the UK (accessible on JewishGEN for free, but only transcripts) has come up with three entries for a Samuel Isaacs that seem appropriate -
    Two are particularly interesting: one for 1827 and one for 1839 give a Samuel Isaacs, living at 18 Mitre St, Aldgate - and give his occupation in 1827 as "coffin maker" and in 1839 as "coffin maker and fruit salesman".
    The third entry is also from 1827, this time for an "orange merchant" called Samuel Isaacs, living next to "The Fishmonger's Arms" in James Place, Duke Street.

    I think the first two entries are probably my Samuel - how many people are both coffin makers and fruit salesmen??

    The rest of the entries of interest date from the 1840s and are for an orange merchant living in Spitalfields.

    There is also an entry in the 1836 Pigot's for a Samuel Isaacs, undertaker, living at 18 Mitre St, Aldgate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    That sounds a good idea. Hopefully these will be useful!

    I thought Hannah's brother David Samuel was also born in the Brighton area?

    I agree, it must be the same Samuel as found in the censuses. Proving he is definitely Hannah's father is another matter, of course, but circumstantial evidence seems strong!
     
  16. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Unfortunately, no. David was born in Finsbury - records on JewishGen for David back this up as well.

    Even if this isn't the correct Samuel, the family must have gone from London to Brighton and back to London again anyway, since David had moved back there by 1851.
    I have been searching around to see if I can find records online of the Synagogues in London and Brighton but currently they don't seem to be in an easy place I can find them (i.e. on FindMyPast or Ancestry!).

    I did message someone who had Catherine and Samuel on a public tree with a marriage for 1818 (which would match with David's birth of 1819). So we'll see what information that brings up, although the same person had uploaded Catherine's death register, which also reads that her husband was an undertaker.

    The circumstantial evidence does seem strong - it would probably help if I could find someone who had also had their DNA tested to compare with some of mine - which is always a possibility because Hannah is a direct maternal ancestor of my paternal grandmother, and I have her DNA results, but no obvious ones yet. Perhaps I need to use Peter's ideas to search through for possible DNA matches. (There are already quite a few with Hannah and her husband Samuel as the closest relatives).
     
  17. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    Research Update:

    Received the GRO register entries for Amelia and Woolf Isaacs (and another Isaacs/Hart birth, Clara) - Amelia and Woolf are both children of Samuel Isaacs, undertaker, and Catherine Isaacs, formerly Hart. The address of the informant (Samuel usually) is 18 Mitre St, Aldgate.

    The other Isaacs, Clara, was the daughter of Moses Isaacs and Elizabeth Hart, so might be a relative, but not who I am looking for.

    No response from the individual on Ancestry, however, feeling reasonably confident (as much as I could be) that I may have found the correct parents for Hannah, regardless of where she was in 1841.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  18. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Good to hear it all seems to fit. As you mentioned earlier, perhaps another targeted search of potential DNA matches could provide another piece of the jigsaw.
     
  19. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Member

    A quick look through the DNA results of my grandmother (closest DNA relative to Hannah - Hannah is her great-great grandmother) searching for "Isaacs" - using one of Peter's suggestions, popped up a DNA relative with both Isaacs and Hart relatives. Unfortunately it wasn't a eureka moment, as they weren't in the same branch, but they were living in London in the right sort of time period - and I actually found the Hart relatives much more interesting than the Isaacs.

    Another couple who also share DNA with my grandmother flag the same individual, called "Solomon Isaacs", the only detail suggests birth in England around 1790, (plus son George, who marries a Bennett).

    ....

    I just looked at a DNA result that I had flagged as "most likely being related through Hannah Isaacs/Samuel Collins"... and reread their tree... OMG!
    They have Samuel Isaacs who married Catherine Hart, and are descended through Esther Isaacs, one of the daughters...

    Can I say probably confirmed now???
     
  20. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Certainly looks like it - congratulations on breaking down that particular brick wall!!
     

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