1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. If you're looking for the LostCousins site please click the logo in the top left corner - these forums are for existing LostCousins members only.
  3. This is the LostCousins Forum. If you were looking for the LostCousins website simply click the logo at the top left.
  4. Coronavirus Corner - a place to share your hopes, dreams, and frustrations.
  5. Only registered members can see all the forums - if you've received an invitation to join (it'll be on your My Summary page) please register NOW!

Convict brothers transported VDL -more information needed on one

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Bob Spiers, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I can now confirm that Ann Green (aka Mary Ann Green) did in fact die in Richmond, Melbourne on 17 December 1898 (Paralysis disability). Aged 'about 70' . The death informant was son Robert who I now know uplifted from Cobden and moved to Melbourne, so after George died Ann obviously moved to live with him and his family.

    My informant confirms she arrived in Victoria in 1849 on the 'Courier' and worked as a Dairy maid, and says there is an 1841 UK Census showing her an Agricultural worker. (I have been unable to find this but will continue to look). She married George Frederick on 5th October 1850 in St James Church, Melbourne (oldest church in Melbourne)

    There is still a little mystery over her birth year, whether 1827 South Brewham, Somerset or 1830 Compton Dundon (Somerton) Somerset. With an age of about 70 in 1898 either could be viable. I will try to resolve this shortly.

    I now know my Ancestry informant is a fourth cousin on both our paternal sides!
  3. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    What is the birth place given on her marriage certificate to George? Surely that should be able to give a definitive answer for where she was born? Or at least be able to narrow it down, given that Ann herself was the one giving the information which was written into the register.

    It's fabulous that you have found a fourth cousin to help you fill in some of the gaps! I have recently received a message from a second cousin 1x removed (the second one from the same extended family) and it is great to discover what information they can add to your own knowledge.
  4. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    There is no doubt that both Compton Dundon and Somerton were mentioned as place of birth and I note they are a stones throw apart. That is why I eventually latched on to the baptismal record of Ann Sawtell Green 19 Dec 1830 at Compton Dundon, Somerset. She was born to spinster Harriet Green, with Sawtell echoing the father's name who she eventually married in 1832. Against this we have my informant 4th cousin showing 1827 South Brewham as 'the most likely', but cannot be sure. I am uncertain if he knows about Compton Dundon or Somerton; just that she was born Somerset. South Brewham whilst on a similar latitude to both is a stride to the East, almost on the Wiltshire border, and of course showing a birth 3 years earlier.

    I need to establish why she is recorded as plain Ann Green (and marries as such -I would not expect 'Sawtell' to show its face) and yet her death Certificate records her as Mary Ann Green aged 'about' 70. However on closer inspection that is an an asterisk type 'rider' against 'Mary' with an illegible note written at right angles possibly explaining that she was known as Ann. VT points out the newspaper records of her death refer to her death as Ann Green and her funeral arrangement as Mary Ann Green.

    I will try again to find her in the 1841 Census in Somerset (my informant advises he found her as an Agricultural worker). Must then sort out the Ann versus Mary Ann enigma. It is just a matter of time I feel.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  5. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I have just had the occupation for George Frederick Westbury challenged by my new Ancestry contact (a 4th cousin) who advises that I (and others before me) have mistakenly interpreted Felmonger (sic) - should be spelled Fellmonger - and someone who deals in animal skins, mainly sheepskins -for Fishmonger. In my defence I learned this long ago from my Canadian lady Westbury researcher, who advised he was a Fishmonger, Warrnambool was a fishing port and many in the family were fishermen. Seems that information was wrong!

    I took another look at the Death Certificate registration and I believe the new information is likely correct; what do you think. Here is an extract for you:

    death cert word extract-george f westbury.JPG

    I am sure you can understand how it became Fishmonger, and now I have had that challenged, pretty sure George Frederick was in fact a Fellmonger and someone who dealt with animal skins, and being Australia, undoubtedly sheep.

    One lives and learns!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    There are two possibles in South Brewham, one "Mary Green" born 1827, and one "Ann Green" born 1828. I don't know the geography, so here are the possible 1841 census entries from FMP for those in Somerset (born within 2 years of 1827). There were twelve results for "Ann Green" and 14 for "Mary Green". (could have been more if I added the "e"...).

    There are even fewer results when you search the same two parameters for the 1851 census - 8 come up for "Mary Ann Green" and only 11 for "Ann Green", two of which are seemingly imports from Gloucestershire.

  7. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Thanks a lot Jorghes, have done the exercise myself but will go through you list tomorrow and compare notes.
  8. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I believe any Somerset search MUST include 1830* and 2 years either side; so 1828 (+/- 2).
    Likewise as the two areas that are shown in the records as Ann (or Mary Ann's) birthplace are Somerton and/or Compton Dundon, (both close to each other (Somerton is a town, CD a village and about 5 miles south of the famous 'Glastonbury' music festival site and roughly mid-county)... then a search radius of about 6 miles would be optimum I would have thought for the 1841 Census. That should certainly be the starting point for a search. (Places further afield can be assessed later).

    The question of Ann or Mary Ann does pose a problem. My 4th cousin contact believes she was plain Ann and I am of that persuasion as time and again from Passenger Lists to naming her on birth entries as the mother of her children she is always ANN. However I cannot lose sight of the fact she is shown as Mary Ann on the death certificate even if a note explains she was always known as Ann. Even newspaper reports of her funeral use both Ann & Mary Ann descriptions. So there has to be some reason for this which is why it is important to trace her birth or a baptism.

    *I have a preference short list of Ann (Sawtree) Green born 1830 in Compton Dundon; the Sawtree being the fathers name and born to Harriet Green, spinster! That is why 1830 must be included.
  9. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    Changing that makes the total of "Ann Greens" 11, (removing one who is no longer within the 2 year gap) and adds two Mary Greens, to make the total 16.
    The two "Mary Green"s were born in 1830, and are from the Parishes of Evercreech (Shepton Mallet) and Camerton (Clutton).
  10. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    It seems to me that this may be verging towards 'searching for a needle in a haystack'. Even if you could confirm her name and her place and approximate date of birth, there is no guarantee that Ann/Mary Ann was baptised where or when she was born - or even at all.

    My best suggestion would be to start with the most likely possibilities and then try to eliminate them one by one. But maybe you've already done that?
  11. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    It would seem that Harriet Green, quite likely the mother of Ann Sawtell Green, married Thomas Sawtell in Compton Dundon in 1832. It is therefore quite possible - maybe even likely - that Ann went by the surname Sawtell from then on.
  12. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    What follows is conjecture, and to assist understanding I provide a rough diagram which sets out the general area in Somerset where I am sure Ann Green (possibly Mary Ann Green)was born circa 1826-1832 (I have extended the range a little for reasons I will explain later).

    Ann at various times in Australia owned to coming from Compton Dundon and another time Somerton. To all intent and purpose they are one and the same. Compton where she was likely born and Somerton here nearest town and possibly where her birth was registered. For Census purposes Langport seems to be the Registration district. High ham is of interest because that was where the Langport Union Workhouse was situated.

    Here is the diagram
    somerset capture.JPG

    I found in the 1841 Census an Ann Green (Pauper inmate) living in the Langport Union Workhouse at High Ham. She was aged 9 so an estimated birth year of 1832 (explaining why I extended the birth year range).

    Now bear in mind an Ann Green (with a middle name of Sawtell) (mentioned in my previous post as Sawtree in error) was born 1830 and baptised 19 Dec 1830 in Compton Dundon to a Harriet Green, Spinster ...the birth recorded as illegitimate. Harriet went on to marry a Thomas Sawtell in 1832, hence giving Ann his middle name when having her baptised. So is it not probable that circumstances forced Harriet had to place Ann in the nearby Langport Union Workhouse at High Ham where she is shown in the 1841 Census aged 9 as a pauper inmate?

    I cannot -as yet - find another Ann Green that satisfies the birth parameters set within the catchment area shown (circled). Certainly if we open up Somerset to a wider catchment than other possibilities may occur and even more so if we consider she may have been a Mary Ann Green, though I am no longer sure about that.

    We know Ann left the UK in September 1849 on the vessel 'Courier' so no chance of finding her in an 1851 Census. Also from notes on the Passenger List that she had a job to go to (Milk Maid) and the name of her employer; which speaks volumes. Who could arrange this but a Union Workhouse and maybe assist with paying her passage or have liaised with Australian authorities with regards to subsidising the cost of her passage? (It would likely be cheaper in the long run anyway. Food for thought perhaps?
  13. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    That makes sense, but as we know our Ann (and she was always Ann so the Mary Ann may be a smoke screen) arrived as 'Green', either Ann Sawtell Green is someone entirely different and we need to look for another, or she is correct, but never used the surname Sawtell. I will pursue further until I decide enough is enough, but seek other opinions in case I have missed something, which is quite likely.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  14. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    From what you've mentioned, it does seem that Ann Sawtell Green could be the Ann you are looking for. But a few things bother me. Have you found anything further on Thomas and Harriet after their marriage in 1832?

    Naming the child with the middle name Sawtell suggests that Harriet intended to use that as Ann's surname if she married the father, and not doing so or later reverting to the surname Green, may suggest Thomas was no longer in the picture. It was not uncommon after a 'shotgun' wedding for the parents to separate, but since the marriage took place 18 months after the baptism, and was apparently by licence, it doesn't look like a shotgun wedding.

    I guess if you know what happened to Thomas and Harriet after 1832 then that may add supporting evidence to this Ann being the right one, but in my brief searches I couldn't find anything more about them.
  15. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    No, neither have I Pauline, yet I found Harriet's Parents - Isaac Green & Jane (Unknown) -living on their own in 1841 in Compton Dundon, Langport (Her parents were shown on her 1809 baptism record). But of Thomas Sawtell and Harriet I found no trace, nor of Harriet as Sawtell or Green. On the chance Harriet might be in the Workhouse I even checked there, but again found nothing. I think I need to change tack!
  16. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I think I am about ready to draw a line under this line of my research. Not that I have everything by any means. On Daniel & Alice McLean I am missing deaths date for both. Daniel, after serving time in Cockatoo Island prison, NSW, (released circa 1859) and Alice (who seemed to prefer staying as Alice Mclean) after 1873. That is when not masquerading as Alice Williams under which name she was convicted for larceny offences in Tasmanian in both 1865 & 1873.

    I am also unable to find convincing birth information for Alice in Edinburgh, perhaps because I cannot say she was born ‘McLean’ although the evidence points that way. All that aside I have ample data to fill out my story line on Daniel & Alice.

    I have fared much better with the help of Forum friends on George Frederick Westbury & Ann Green, making my opening posting that I knew a fair bit about them quite an overstatement. I knew very little at the beginning as it happens but with all the help given -and a fair bit of overtime research myself - can say I now know more than a fair bit.

    Even so - as with Alice McLean – her sister-in-law (although I doubt she knew it) - I cannot truly pinpoint Ann’s birth year or parents although I know her birth area well enough. I have a hunch she was born in 1830 to Harriet (out of wedlock) in Compton Dundon, Somerset and ended up in 1841 in as a Pauper Inmate in Langport Union Workhouse. It is also likely it was they who later arranged for her to emigrate to Australia with a job to go to.

    But hunches are not of course proof so although I may be winding down on research, it will continue as far as my Tree is concerned. But, as I concluded for Daniel & Alice, I now have enough detail to write my story on my two convict brothers & their spouses. Shame I cannot find evidence they ever met up in Australia, but I am dealing with fact, not fiction, so my job was to maximise fact and that, I feel I have done.
  17. Katie Bee

    Katie Bee LostCousins Member

    Well done, Bob, and everyone else who helped.
    I have enjoyed your journey.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    Congrats Bob, I think it will be an interesting story none-the-less!
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I am on my third Draft and my wife is chief Proof Reader (well the only one actually). When complete I will submit it for publication in the 'The Midland Ancestor' -the Journal of the Birmingham & Midland Society for Genealogy & Heraldry (BMSGH) of which I am a member. The Journal comes out quarterly. I have missed the deadline for the summer edition, but hopefully, if accepted, it will be published in the Autumn.

    I had a story published in the March 2017 edition entitled ... 'Disaster at the Distillery' (The tragic death of five men in what became known as the Worcester Grain Distillery Disaster of 1856) . One of those killed was my 3rd Great maternal Grandfather Henry Witts (1814-1856). That story was well researched and based on Worcester Newspaper reports of the time, plus the invaluable help of a lovely lady in Worcester (distantly related through her direct ancestor marrying one of Henry's daughters). She is a Worcester local historian and her knowledge of old Worcester and archive sources was of great help to me.

    You can be sure the help I have received from the Forum will be acknowledged in the Footnote where I quote Newspaper and other sources. But that doesn't stop me thanking everyone once again here and now.
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  20. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    For the record my article about my Westbury convict ancestors offered for publication in the BMSGH Magazine (The Midland Ancestor) has been accepted for publication in its Autumn edition. So once again thank you for all the tremendous help given to enable me to get to the facts about my two convict Great x 3 Uncles.

    The BMSGH also drew my attention to an award given by the Tasmanian Family History society for any book personally written on family history having a 'significant Tasmanian content'. I have read the conditions of entry and even though Daniel & Alice certainly relate to Tasmania, the article in its present format falls far short of the criteria for entry -not least requiring it to be in book format. So I will pass on that and consider my next project.

Share This Page