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1717 Will written in Latin?

Discussion in 'Wills and probate' started by Bob Spiers, May 8, 2018.

  1. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I took me a while to come to the conclusion that the original image of an ancestors Will (Jonathan Jee 1657-1717) - from Hartshill, Mancetter, North Warwickshire - believed to be a paternal 7x GG father - was written in Latin. In the faint hope we have a Latin Scholar amongst us (oh ye of little faith) , I provide an FMP link as ask if anyone in the Forum can make head or tail of it. The link is here Jee

    I am reasonably happy with the Transcription but given there is an original image available, it would have been nice to see if it provided additional information, as they often do.

    Note the Probate link is part of Staffordshire (Dioceses of Lichfield and Coventry) but the area in question -Mancetter is part of North Warwickshire and comes under Coventry Diocese.
  2. Rhian

    Rhian LostCousins Member

    I could not see the transcription, just an overview of some facts. The biggest problem is, of course, not the latin but the latin abbreviations. It begins Comp't then his name in latin, you have to know that the first word is comparant, it does seem to have more information but I am having a particularly bad day with my eyes/ Just looking ar english printed text is a problem today. If nobody pops up to help I will look again in a few days.
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  3. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Apologies for anyone clicking the link who does not have an FMP subscription, but for those who have and try to view the Image, if its any help, his son - who I believe inherits -is shown bottom line as Georgio (a?) Jee filio.

    Note both son and grandson were named George and the deceased is Jonathan Jee.
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  4. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Bob, this looks to me like an Administration, not a will. The first page is in Latin and I think this is a Commission to George Jee as administrator, which I think probably uses fairly standard wording. This is followed by an Inventory in English, and finally the Administration Bond, the start of which is in Latin using standard wording, and then continues in English. Most of the useful stuff is in the English part of the Bond, and the Inventory.
  5. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Just to add to the above, in the Latin part of the bond are the details of the bondsmen - George Jee of Caldecote in the county of War[wick] yeoman, Charles Randall (Randale?) of Caldecote aforesaid yeoman, and John Jee of ?? in the county of Stafford yeoman. The ?? is a place written in English and probably more easily recognisable to someone familiar with Staffordshire place names.
  6. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Pauline, greatly indebted and hadn't gone beyond the Latin Document. So not only a summary of effects but more importantly a Will written in formal English legalise, and of course the names of Bondsmen. I know George (the son) was a Farmer and Landowner with Yeoman status (and indeed was shown in a Jury List Document elsewhere with Charles Randall a fellow Yeoman).

    The last John Jee is intriguing, not that there aren't any John Jee's, but the one I know a fair bit about (Jonathan's grandson who will shortly be the subject of an article I am writing for the Midland Ancestor magazine) wasn't born until 1720. So I deduce it must be Jonathan (Jr) (Jonathan often abbreviated as 'Jn-o') a younger son. They were all from the same Parish of Mancetter (aka Hartslip, Caldecote) which by the way are all North Warwickshire, even though the Probate and other formal Documents at the time were shown as Staffordshire.

    Thanks again a big help.
  7. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Not actually a Will, but an Administration - in other words, Jonathan Jee died intestate.
    The name in the document is written Johannem, the accusative form of Johannes, which is Latin for John, not Jonathan.
    The abbreviation Jno is also John, not Jonathan - as in the signature at the bottom of the bond.

    Also, looking at the signatures/marks it appears Charles' surname was Randale.
  8. Heather

    Heather LostCousins Member

    Although Pauline has helped with your query Bob, I have to say that reading the inventory was really interesting, your ancestor was not without a great deal of "goods and chattels", well done Pauline.
  9. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Yes I was about to respond by saying I recognise now the Document is one provided by Stationers of the day (requiring a duty payment) for others to write in words to suit occasion; in this case Letters of Administration.( In fact I had only recently seen a similar pre-printed document to be used in the same way for Craft Masters to complete when offering Indentures).

    I accept what you say BUT with extensive knowledge gained with my research of the family from the 1850's backward to Jonathan (yes Jonathan) born c1655, all sons seem to have been named George, John, Richard or Jonathan. (There was a name hierarchy for the girls as well Ann, Elizabeth and of course Mary). So there have been quite distinctive John's and Jonathan's, one or two Richards and a whole plethora of George's.
    Yes but again I can only go on my research of this family where Jonathan's seem to be shown in original images abbreviated Jn-0 (usually the 'o' is higher then the Jn with a line underneath). I can only recall one use of the full name, except in Transcriptions where they are shown as Jonathan. ( I have no idea how they signed themselves of course).

    [QUOTE} Also, looking at the signatures/marks it appears Charles' surname was Randale.[/QUOTE]
    He was shown elsewhere as Randall, but other than knowing he was a fellow Yeoman along with George, I have no way of knowing how his surname was spelled.
  10. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Yes I agree the 'Jee' families of the 17th & 18th Century were, in the main, quite influential citizens. Land owners, Farmers and Yeoman. (One son became a 'Freeman' receiving 'Freedom of the City status as a 'Master' and a member of a Guild, and its his story I am about to write).

    But, interestingly things changed when a Jee daughter down the line (the mid 1850's) married into my paternal secondary Westbury line, had numerous children, and two of their sons were charged with various felonies earning them transportation to Van Dieman's land. But that's a story already told, but shows how fortunes change over time and not always upwards.
  11. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Bob, the Latin for Jonathan is Jonathan. In the first image for this admon you will see the name Jonathan given in Latin in both the accusative (Jonathanem) and genitive (Jonathanis) forms.

    I accept what you say about the name Jonathan occurring in repeated generations of Jees, but I would also say that it is incorrect to transcribe Jno as Jonathan. A transcriber should always transcribe what the original says, and not their assumed interpretation of it.
  12. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    I am now wondering if this might be Streethay, a bit north east of Lichfield.
  13. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I doubt this as I mentioned previously, all the families come from North Warwickshire. Staffordshire is somewhat of a red herring, and only comes into the picture for Ecclesiastical purposes where shown as Lichfield & Coventry. They come under the reach of Coventry rather than Lichfield.

    As far as I know, the families all lived in 5 villages, from memory Hartshill,Caldecote,, Baddesley Ensor, Mancettor & Atherstone. None actually from Staffordhire.
  14. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    We are approaching this from different angles. I have no knowledge of this family and can only tell you what the document actually says. You, with knowledge of the family, will be looking at who these folk might be and how they connect to you.

    In the document, the third bondsman is clearly given as John Jee yeoman of .... in Staffordshire. The specific place within Staffordshire is not very easy to read in the document but my best guess is Streethay, and I see there is such a place in Staffordshire. If not Streethay, wherever it is is nevertheless clearly given as being in Staffordshire.
  15. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Thanks for input Pauline which I truly appreciate, but I have extracted what I wanted with you help, and do not want to get bogged down with the semantics of the Document. All I needed was to know it concerned "Jonathan Jee of Hartshill, Widower ??" and am reasonably certain the ?? is not a place; but I could be wrong. The other thing for me was to pick up that eldest son George Jee inherited and I know he and the family for some generations farmed at Hartshill, which (as in most of the other villages where Jee families lived and mentioned previously) was part of the ancient ecclesiastical Parish of Mancetter (as well as a village of the same name), North Warwickshire.

    Caldecote is literally a stones throw from the Leicestershire border, and Atherstone likewise and reasonably close to the Staffordshire border.

    (I believe from studying other documents that the Staffordshire influence comes from the way ecclesiastical parishes were overseen by the established Church. It seems Mancetter Parish fell within the wider remit of the Lichfield & Coventry Diocese, which came under Staffordshire for record purposes and certainly for Wills & probate)
  16. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Fair enough - as I said, it's your family not mine.

    However, should you wish to know for future reference, parish registers for Whittington, Staffordshire in the early 1700s (images of which are at FMP) have several references to a John Jee of Streethay and his children.

    Chances are, since John Jee of Streethay was one of the bondmen, he could be related to your Jonathan Jee (the intestate).
  17. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    Lichfield Diocese included the archdeaconries of Coventry, Derby, Salop and Stafford, and before the mid-16th century it also included the archdeaconry of Chester.

    So yes, at this time many parishes in Staffordshire, Warwickshire, Derbyshire and Shropshire would be under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of Lichfield.
  18. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    That may well have significance Pauline, as I have yet to place the Master Carpenter by the name of John Jee who I believe offered an Indenture to a namesake John Jee -currently the focus of my research. I was sure the Master had to be family related. Mind you he had a workshop in Coventry and I do have a likely candidate in mind. But now you have highlighted John Jee from Streethay, (Whittington)I best check him out.

    Speaking of which:
    Where exactly does this show in the Document because I have been unable to locate him?

    However, harking back to the ?? in the Document, it might be 'Ansley'. I say this because on a quite separate Warwickshire 'Jurors List' showing George Jee Junior and two other Yeomen all from Hartshill, they are actually shown to represent the 'Parish of Ansley'. (Previously the Manor of Ansley) of which Hartshill was part. I know it doesn't seem to start with an 'A' but shut one eye and squint with the other and it just might;)
  19. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Superstar

    In the Latin bit at the top of the final image of the document - right at the end of the second line is “Johannem”, and then at the start of the next line is “Jee de Streethay in Comitatu Stafford... yeoman” - can’t quite work out the ending on Stafford, but Comitatu means county.

    If your ?? is from further down the same page then I think the word is “lately”, and is followed (after the gap) by the word deceased.
  20. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Goodness the resolution of your monitor must be better than mine (a little ancient like me) but I found the item and thank goodness you have transcribed as I would never have made that out myself even with an enlarged image. I will see where that leads but already I believe he is the John Jee shown born Whittington, Staffs 31 Dec 1689 in Family Search. More interestingly the son of a George Jee (no mother shown) so certainly following Jee traditions.
    Yes we were at cross purposes because I was referring to the item, as you say... further down the page. Yes 'lately' followed by deceased (glad you translated that) makes the better sense, well done and thanks.

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