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Saving on heating bills

Discussion in 'Comments on the latest newsletter' started by At home in NZ, Sep 30, 2021.

  1. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Modern boilers are very quiet - it's the water flowing round the system that I'm more likely to notice, though since our heating doesn't start up until around 6am it doesn't affect my sleep.

    Our house is less than 100 yards from a motorway so we have secondary double-glazing, which is very effective - perhaps you'll have to consider it? It'll probably pay for itself with the savings on heating bills.
     
  2. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    Ours is about 8 years old, and relatively quiet. However, because of where it is sited, it almost invariably wakes me up, so our heating is set to come on 10 minutes before the alarm.

    It’s the type of noise as much as its volume which determines how disturbing it - continuous hums are particularly annoying and tend to be hard to block. Last night, I tried ear phones, plus a pillow and the quilt over my head, but I still couldn’t shut it out.
     
  3. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    They're easy to block with noise-cancelling headphones, but you probably wouldn't want to wear those in bed. Double-glazing works with all types of sound and it'll pay for itself with the saving on heating costs.

    You could also ask the council to measure the sound-level and take action if it's too high - according to this page there's a limit of 42dB.
     
  4. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    As tenants we're not allowed to make alterations to the fabric of the building, but the design of the windows here is such that it would be logistically impossible to fit secondary double glazing anyway.
     
  5. Perhaps it's time to get innovative, a sheet of Perspex that fits over the glass and can be stuck to the window frame with something like Blutack might do the trick.

    As an aside, it is compulsory for all new homes in NZ to have double glazing, for insulation. We have it and it does block out most sound, except the warning sign a reversing truck makes at 3am after delivery of the mail to the sorting office. Sometimes it wakes me and sometimes I get back to sleep and other times I lie awake for about 3 hours, most annoying.
     
  6. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    That's pretty much what we have on most of our windows, except that it's held in place by magnetic tape.
     
  7. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    OK, just to clarify things - we already have double glazing on all our windows.

    Also, my comments about the noise from this heat pump were intended as a general observation. The continuous hum can be heard during the day too, both in our house and outside. When we were out for a walk, we could still hear the noise 150 yards or so away, which gives an idea of the sort of noise impact as more people install them.
     
  8. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    On the subject of noise and getting used to same (and nothing to do with Heat Pumps), I have twice in my life lived directly alongside a main road. The first time (newly married in the 60's , living in a first floor flat, part of a very old building with single glazed windows) the road outside was the A5 a very busy trunk road; busy by day and night. I well recall my parents visiting and staying with us and my mother who liked windows to be open day and night saying..."how on earth do you live with the noise"? I said well in your 3-day visit you won't but after a relatively short time it is hardly noticeable, and rarely commented upon. It is what it is.

    After about a year we qualified for a Council house in my wife's birth village a few miles away. When visiting my mother remarked how quiet everything was and no traffic fumes when the windows were open. She did comment on being awoken by a local morning Rooster and was surprised when I said we were used to it.

    The second time also happens to be the present but the road is not a trunk road, just a main bus route through the town. The house is fully double glazed and traffic noise is mainly throughout the day. It is just a background noise and part of the environment in which we live; barely discernible because of the double glazing, and only slightly less so when the windows are open. Occasionally when sitting in the back garden at the height of summer the odd heavy traffic noise of lorry may intrude on our consciousness, but again barely worthy of comment.

    Of course when we have visitors they -like my mother many years before - ask "How do you put up with all that traffic"? They are rarely consoled by our answering, "What traffic"? If staying for a week the question of traffic noise rarely crops up again.

    It is only NEW noises that cause irritation - chain saws, cutting tools, power saws and yes generator hums (although not as yet from Heat Pumps) they can be a nuisance. But even then -providing the noise is not of a decibel level to cause one to complain - or you know will soon go away -like a recent experience of building work on a neighbouring house running into weeks - it is something you gradually adjust to even without actually knowing it is happening. Only to be brought to the surface again when somebody asks how you put up with the noise?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
  9. Bryman

    Bryman LostCousins Megastar

    Perhaps you should complain and ask for the manufacturer/installer to make some changes. My heat pump is mounted less than 20m away from the bedroom areas and and there is no penetrating humming noise that we hear when it is working over night even though we have bedroom windows open.
     
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  10. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    In the interest of science (well sort of) and as I only know of one source of Heat Pumps, which happens to be on the rear wall of our local Pharmacy - and where I park whilst my wife goes in to get our medications - I wound down the car windows to see if I could detect any humming noises. There were none that I could discern. So I alighted and walked towards the wall and heat pumps. At about 5 yards distance I could just make out the whirr of fan noise, but very subdued and no humming noise to speak of.

    Now I do not know if heat pumps work in phases, or loads, so it is possible they a hum is created at some point but in the few minutes of my experiment I heard none.

    So either it is the quality of the heat pumps -these were likely commercial models - or something to do with the way they are regulated. I shall listen again when we next need to visit the Pharmacy and see if anything has changed.
     
  11. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    How much noise do heat pumps produce…?
    …Anyone considering heat pump installation will ask this question. The environmentally friendly technology and savings on energy bills are a bonus but noise can be an issue, as heat pumps generally produce noise levels of 40 to 50dB(A).

    Noise in residential areas from industrial sources is normally assessed against British Standard BS 4142. If the difference between the Rating Level of the specific noise and the background noise is +5dB, it’s deemed to be of “marginal significance” and acceptable. However, a difference of +10dB or more indicates complaints are likely. Most local authorities will take action against the organisation producing the noise when it reaches this threshold.

    from https://www.soundplanning.co.uk/heat-pump-noise/
     
  12. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    The heat pump seems to have been turned off again now, and there's still no sign of anyone moving in imminently, so perhaps it was just being tried out. I think it will be a case of monitoring it once it is up and running properly, but we ourselves will be moving fairly soon.
     
  13. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    As with most things, it is a matter of balancing the pros and cons. Noise is perhaps more of an issue with heat pumps because they are sited outside, whereas central heating boilers tend to be inside people's houses, or at least in a garage or boiler house. Also, as I understand it, heat pumps are best left running overnight, when any noise they make is likely to be more noticeable, whereas we always turn our heating off overnight.

    I'm all in favour of doing what I can to help the environment, but at the same time, I am quite sensitive to noise, and I need my beauty sleep!
     
  14. Stephen L

    Stephen L LostCousins Member

    There is another very important way to save money on gas bills by 6-8% but it appears to be relatively little known. It applies to condensing combi boilers that are the most common type in England now (54.8% of boilers in 2019). It does NOT apply to other boiler types.
    To make these boilers as efficient as they should be the temperature of the water that flows to the radiators needs to be reduced from the factory setting. Radiators will be cooler but there is no impact on comfort.
    I have heard this method of increasing efficiency mentioned on BBC Radio 4 more than once and seen in The Guardian but the best place to go for full information and advice is the heating hub. From the home page there are links to a .pdf flyer, a video and a blog on how to make the required change with examples of common boiler models.
    I hope this may prove useful and is worth passing on to other boiler users.
    It does not help me as our boiler uses wood pellets - we have no gas here.
     
  15. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    This may depend on how your boiler operates. Some modern combi boilers work to target temperatures; that is, as the temperature in the building moves towards that set on the main thermostat, the boiler automatically reduces the flow temperature, so that by the time the thermostat reaches temperature and clicks off, the flow temperature (and thus the radiators) will be barely lukewarm.
     
  16. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    Just to add to what I wrote above, there is an open Which article which covers this, and mentions 3 scenarios when reducing the flow temperature won’t save you money:
    1. The flow temperature has already been reduced to the most efficient setting
    2. Your home is not particularly well insulated
    3. The outside temperature is particularly cold

    Having had experience of a boiler which automatically adjusted the flow temperature I can endorse the latter two points.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  17. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    Another energy saving tip is not to use the hot tap - or turn mixer taps to hot - when washing hands. Most sources agree that the most important thing from a hygiene point of view is to use soap, and it doesn’t matter whether the water is hot or cold.

    Also, many people automatically turn on the hot tap for hand washing but have finished before the water has actually started running hot. So they are using energy to heat the water but then, unless someone else is using the water straight afterwards, that energy is just wasted.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    The Which? article also warns about reducing the temperature of the hot water because of the risk of legionella
    I totally agree.

    We don't have a combi boiler, so our hot water is stored in a tank - which is very wasteful as washing machines and dishwashers are cold fill, and our shower is also electric. So we generally only switch the hot water on when it is 'bath night'.
     
  19. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    What about hot water for washing-up (the dishes), or are you one who saves everything up for a weekly or bi-weekly machine dish wash? I can't believe that accords with your 'green' energy conservation principles. I arrange for the water to be heated for the first half hour of each day, longer on bath day (usually Sunday morning) when it is on for a couple of hours. We eat early evening - I cook, my wife washes-up - and complains if the water is not hot enough. To counter this I arrange a late afternoon boost for 15 minutes, which seems to do the trick.

    We have a dish washer which gets used occasionally when I have a field day with excess use of pots, pans and dishes or when we have family over for a meal, otherwise it is hand wash as you go. Luckily I am not allowed to wash the dishes because I don't do it thoroughly enough; as if!;)
     
  20. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    The dishwasher goes on once a day on average - it's always full, so there is no waste.

    Which?
    found that dishwashers use much less water than handwashing - on average they are 4 times more efficient, and the most efficient models use 10 times less water than handwashing (and as we chose a Which? Best Buy I imagine our savings are well above average).

    The calculations for energy efficiency are more complex, but in our home the water in the kitchen isn't provided by the oil boiler, but by an electric heater, which means the savings on energy will be similar to the savings on water. If I need to wash very large items by hand I aim to use water that has been heated for another purpose - for example, I might make use of the water in which vegetables or pasta have been cooked.
     

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