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Poor Law Removal question

Discussion in 'Workhouses and the Poor Laws' started by canadianbeth, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. canadianbeth

    canadianbeth LostCousins Member

    I was checking my ThruLines and found a potential 4th great-grandfather, with his wife's name already listed. I already have confirmed the third great-grandparents. When looking at the list of sources I came upon one for Selected Poor Law and Settlement and discovered that after my 4th great-grandfather died at the age of 23, the same year my 3rd great-grandmother was born, that in 1801 his widow and child were removed - somehow. I cannot read all of the writing and wonder if someone else can do so and also explain just to where they would have been "removed". I find it interesting that it appears her father was still living; why would he not have come to her rescue, so to speak.

    Obviously, this was not an unusual occurrence, since a great deal of the document is already printed, just leaving spaces for names and such.

    This is the link.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2019
  2. Heather

    Heather LostCousins Member

    Hi Canadianbeth, to me it seems that Maria Gibbons and her child were residing in the St Leonard Shoreditch parish and the powers that be, are asking that they be removed to the Parish of St George Hanover Square.

    As far as I can see the handwriting is as follows:------

    "Saint George Hanover Square within the Liberty of Westminster in the County of Middlesex"

    " Maria Gibbons widow of Humphrey Gibbons deceased and her child lawful issue namely Maria aged one year and six months Have"

    " Maria Gibbons widow and child is in the parish of St George Hanover Square within the Liberty of Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid"

    I can see that the title from Ancestry states that these entries are dated 1800 to 1803 but if you carry on to the next page you can see that this document is dated 12 August and the year looks to me to be 1805 although I guess it may be 1801.
  3. AdrienneQ

    AdrienneQ Moderator Staff Member

    My understanding of removal is that the Parish that she was in did not think they should be paying for her care and that the responsibility rested with the other parish so she should be livving there.
  4. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    That's right. A woman would have acquired her husband's settlement right on marriage, and I think that continues after his death. The date at the bottom of the page is 1801.

    It's possible that St George, Hanover Square is the parish where Humphry Gibbons was born - but he might also have acquired a right of settlement by living or working there.
  5. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    I have at least one example of this in my ancestry, where a widow and her 2 children were ordered to be removed from Bolton (where they were living and claiming parish relief) to Blackburn (where they were said to have 'lawful Settlement') in 1830. I agree with Heather's transcription above (note the long 's' in 'issue' as discussed in another thread!) and the date is 1801. Judging by the large number of removal orders dealt with by Lancashire Quarter Sessions around the time of my ancestor's case, it looks to be quite a common occurrence in Lancs and presumably also in other parts of the country prior to 1834 when the Poor Law was changed. I also found this article on Settlement Certificates and Removal Orders, which provides some useful background information.
  6. canadianbeth

    canadianbeth LostCousins Member

    So she would not necessarily have been relegated to a poor or workhouse, but would have received some sort of welfare from a different town or church? Does it mean that after her husband died, she moved to a different parish and the folks there complained that she did not belong so had to go back to where her husband was living at the time he died? According to Heather's link, a widow was entitled to stay in her husband's "settlement". What exactly is that anyway - is it the town where he lived? The information I have states that he died in London. I know that back in the day London was made up of many little "towns", but were Westminster and Shoreditch, not both technically part of London? (My granddad Riches was born in Battersea; most of my Joyce ancestors in Twickenham)
  7. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    The article Helen linked to explains how settlement is determined.

    London refers to different areas depending on the date - this GENUKI page should help.
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  8. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    St Leonard Shoreditch and St George Hanover Square were different parishes, then in the county of Middlesex (and nowadays in London, and pretty central at that). Each parish had an obligation to provide welfare only for their own parishioners. So if they were living in a parish where they had no right of settlement, they could be removed to a parish where they did have that right. 'Living on parish relief' often appears under 'occupation' in censuses. It doesn't mean they were in the workhouse.
  9. canadianbeth

    canadianbeth LostCousins Member

    Interesting. Both the Saint George Hanover Square and St Leonard, Shoreditch parishes (churches?) are in the Middlesex section of that link. And judging by the map they are about a few blocks apart. So Maria married Humphrey and moved next street over until he died and she had to vacate where they were renting. She moved back and someone complained. I wonder where she went. Her daughter, also Maria, is in the 1841 census but was married by then and living in St. Mary Whitechapel.

    Interesting things you learn when poking about in websites. :) I bookmarked Peter's link

    ETA: I had posted this before seeing Helen's post.
  10. Helen7

    Helen7 LostCousins Star

    Well, they're not that close - several miles apart rather than a few blocks. St George Hanover Square is in the West End of London whilst Shoreditch is in the East End. The parishes each have churches (St George and St Leonard) dating back to the 18th century. One of my ancestors was baptised at St Leonard's.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Get s new map!!!
  12. Britjan

    Britjan LostCousins Star

    Some of my Norfolk distant relatives were shipped to Ontario in a poor law resettlement sometime between 1841 - 1861 but within a generation had moved to the United States. Unfortunately the person in the U.S. who had the information on a public tree had absolutely no interest in their English roots. The irony is that some of my mother in law's family arrived in the U.S. as "Pennsylvania Dutch " and migrated to Canada at approximately the same time.

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