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A Conundrum?

Discussion in 'General Genealogical Queries' started by Tim, Oct 20, 2022.

  1. Tim

    Tim Megastar and Moderator Staff Member

    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for spending some time on this puzzle.

    Alfred did have another sister, Gladys b1892.

    The connection between these 2 still evades me as well, maybe it was through their parents? John Hedges came from Surrey, birth registered in Kingston, which is only 9 miles from Streatham.

    Maybe the Scobells came to Standon for their holidays?

    The William you identified was a cycle repairer, maybe he cycled from Streatham? I guess we'll never know.

    But thanks for looking, really appreciated.
     
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  2. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I see Alfred left a Will 1961 (£6526) -close to £50,000 today - the beneficiary being his youngest sister Sybil Grey Hedges. She would have been about 67 and shown as a Spinster. I had doubted the sisters married and the one I missed - Gladys Gillett Hedges - (the middle names of all the children were previous generation surnames), was given her mother Clara's maiden name. I could not find a marriage for Gladys either.

    Likewise I discovered the parents of William Scobell were Aspasio Scobell and Annie White which explains the middle name of the son Henry and begs the question whether William Snr was himself baptised with a middle name beginning with 'B' and why neither son William Jr or Ronald sport a middle name?

    Still a way off discovering how William and Alfred became friends, other than Tim's conjectures and a dozen or more speculative avenues.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2022
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  3. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Never really happy about not finding William Scobell without a middle name beginning with 'B' and have now come across an Ancestry Tree with quite detailed information about William Scobell 1882-1921 (with an Aspasio father) declaring him to be a William Frederick Scobell. I would be more worried if there weren't obvious errors showing in the Tree and possibly a 'copycat' Tree in itself. Nevertheless, food for thought that we may need to seek a different Billy Scobell, or rather a William B Scobell, or even Scoble:(
     
  4. Britjan

    Britjan LostCousins Star

  5. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    I messaged someone on Ancestry researching 'Scoble'. They could not help with the Alfred H Hedges friendship, but because of the 'B' middle initial suggested William Blake Scoble whom I had already shortlisted (as had others I recall) mainly because of the surname spelling, and other matters, I side-lined him. Here is the answer received.

    I have a WIlliam Blake SCOBLE, born 1884 in Hackney, London. He appears in the census of 1891 and 1901 in Hackney. He married Mabel Alice SINCLAIR in 1910 and appears in the 1911 census with her. They had one son Vernon Sinclair Blake SCOBLE in 1911 and divorced in 1913. He died in Hendon, North London in 1936. In all records, his name is spelled SCOBLE. Sorry I can't be of more help.

    With the additional information I will take another look at William Blake Scoble and see what, if anything, materialises.
     
  6. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    One thing that SPRANG out loud and clear is that this William Blake Scoble (give or take another spelling blip as Seoble) was a Freemason. Sadly the same card catalogue of England Freemason Member 1751-1921 did not show an Alfred Hale Hedges, which would have explained a lot. But that would have been too simple;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    After a little more trolling I am inclined to dismiss this William B Scoble, not just because of the surname spelling, but I see as befitting becoming a Freemason in 1916, in the same year (age about 32) being described as a 'Gentleman' (no profession or business) was accepted by 'Redemption' (i.e by purchase) for the Freedom of the City of London, something normally acquired by having a Trade and usually as a Master being a member of a Guild. The only thing in his favour is that in the 1901 Census he was known by his family as "Willy" B Scoble, but has no occupation which for a 17 year old at that time seems strange, although he may have been in higher education of some sort. Other than having the right middle initial and perhaps he preferred to be known as Billy (hardly in keeping with his Gentleman status), I shall place him on the back burner for now.
     
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  8. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Although sill unproven as Billy Scobell I return to the original William Scobell (no middle initital) who I now believe favourite, especially with the spelling of his surname. I tend to think the friendship connection goes back to their parents with Aspasio Scobell born in Lingfield, Surrey and John Hedges in Ham, Surrey. One or both come under the Croydon registration area and the area where Aspasio married in 1880 and where William was born in 1882.

    John Hedges moved to Little Hadham (aka Standon/Ware) , Hertfordshire from where his wife Clara originated and where Alfred Hale Hedges was born; although his sisters were born in Youngsbury, Herts.

    Although an age difference of 6 years between William & Alfred, I do not rule out a school connection or a sporting one (playing or supporting a local team or perhaps a professional one). If there was later a military connection, I now think that can be discounted as the giving of the present was on Alfred's 21st birthday in 1909, with the war 5 years away. However they were both shown as drivers and mechanics which in that era often centred around owning a motor cycle. William Scobell and Alfred H Hedges did not live far from each other -not as close as their parents when they were children- but no great distance with transport.

    I believe trying to locate descendance from Alfred and siblings is unlikely to prove fruitful since none seem to have been married or know of any o-o-w offspring. Whilst the same may not be so for Scobell descendance, it is perhaps of secondary consideration but I am sure can be undertaken if required.
     
  9. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Well, they didn't get bombed in WW2, did they?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Bryman

    Bryman LostCousins Megastar

    Sorry Bob but isn't that a bit of a stretch for the imagination? There must be other registration areas between those areas and Croydon. Ham is very close to Kingston upon Thames and Lingfield is not far from Gatwick Airport.

    It is many years since I lived in that area but surely things have not changed that much.
     
  11. At home in NZ

    At home in NZ LostCousins Star

    Registration Districts have changed over the years.

    see what you make of these
    Godstone includes Lingfield, now part of Surrey South Eastern

    Ham is Surrey North Eastern

    Croydon contains neither Ham nor Lingfield
     
  12. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    You clearly don't know the stretch of my imagination...but come come, pedantry is not called for when my research is purely exploratory in order to help solve Tim's Conundrum. I merely encountered the fact that in the early 1900's areas of Surrey seemed to favour 'Croydon' as their Registration District and changes pre or post war have no relevance. I Google mapped all the areas mentioned and admit to my own surprise that Croydon seems a stride away from some of the areas, but my research sources; 'Ancestry/FMP/Family Search', (and I cant remember any individual source or what enquiry I was making) time and again gave the one 'common denominator' Registration District as Croydon; regardless of actual birth place.

    The point I was trying to get across is that the parents (Scobell & Hedges) originated in Surrey, despite relocation of the Hedges to Hertfordshire so perhaps (just perhaps) the friendships of Billy & Alfie is tied to their parents.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    My reply to Bryman largely covers the points you are making, but thanks anyway.
     
  14. Bryman

    Bryman LostCousins Megastar

    I don't doubt that but there was much more to Surrey than Croydon. I am well aware that the registration districts have changed over the years but for the period that you have been researching there were many such areas closer to Ham and Lingfield than Croydon. My initial comment was not meant as a criticism but more surprise that you had included what I thought was an unnecessary and incredulous statement. It seemed to me that you had stated something that was not from your research (for which I am sure that Tim is very grateful) but rather just your opinion, which I questioned in case there was something further which I had not understood.

    After thinking about this a little more, could it be that the births may have taken place in Ham and Lingfield but that the registrations were made later back at Croydon rather than in those districts?

    As I stated right at the beginning, "Sorry Bob", and I don't want to extend this into any long-running argument or justification from either of us. I brought the matter to your attention in case it was stated incompletely or as a 'mistake'. If I have misinterpreted what was written then I am sorry and shall not pursue this any further.
     
  15. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    There you have it in one Bryman, that is indeed what I think happened and what made me keep making notes of residences and activities taking place in Croydon purely because that was the Registration area. Later in my research I took more notice of actual place names (like Ham & Lingfield, and indeed Mitcham when that also came under Surrey), but in the 1921 Census William Scobell actually showed his birth place to be Croydon, Surrey.
    View attachment 2289

    So Croydon sort of stuck as a 'catch all' for Surrey.

    But no need to worry on any account for bringing things to my attention, I often felt the same when people not completely au fait with the West Midlands (as it is now called) assigned Birmingham for locations that often were often miles outside its (then Warwickshire) boundaries; indeed often into adjacent counties...Croydon, like Birmingham (or Aston), was the Registration areas.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
  16. Bob Spiers

    Bob Spiers LostCousins Superstar

    Although I have been able to trace a present day descendant for Billy Scobell - providing the right William Scobell without a middle initial, and although I think he is one and the same who gave the present to his friend Alfred Hedges- it is clearly a Hedges descendant that needs to be found if Tim is to pass on the vacuum flask to a descendant from Alfred's line. I have to say that is appearing unlikely, and I have seldom found a family with siblings and children of siblings, so devoid of offspring. I provide a chart to make it easier to follow the text

    upload_2022-11-27_10-51-35.jpeg

    If we go back to Alfred's grandparents -Frederick Hedges 1825 and his wife now known to be Elizabeth Towery They had two sons, Frederick Hedges 1855 (who I shall refer to as Jr) and John in 1856 - all born in Ham, Surrey.

    It should be recorded here that Frederick Sr died in 1859 aged 34 and Elizabeth married a George Parmer (sic) in 1863. Again in Ham, Surrey. I can find no further Parmer offspring.

    John Hedges married Clara Gillett and had 4 children, one of whom was Alfred Hale Hedges and the others with middle names: Grace Towers; Gladys Gillett & Sybil Grey. Somewhat surprisingly, neither Alfred or any of his 3 sister's appear to have married although all but one lived to ripe ages. So time to turn to their father's brother Frederick Hedges Jr, born 1855.

    I found him in the 1891 Census living with his mother Elizabeth and her new partner George Parmer, where Frederick is shown to be single - aged 36. What is more 9 years later in 1900 I found a death for Frederick which tallies in every regard. So a dead end here also.

    I am sure if I was Heir Hunting I might need to go back to Great Grandparents, or even see if other siblings (or children) exist within and without marriage, but for now I draw a line on my research and unless Tim himself, or anyone in the Forum can take it further, believe it quite likely the flask must remain with Tim.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022 at 11:19 AM
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
  17. Tim

    Tim Megastar and Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks Bob for confirming this, it doesn't look like there's a family out there.
     

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