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2nd cousin

Discussion in 'DNA Questions and Answers' started by AnneC, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. AnneC

    AnneC LostCousins Star

    I have read all of Peter's articles on DNA, and have tried to follow most of the discussions, but am still not certain if any DNA test would help in my case. There is some contention within the family if another supposed great granddaughter (Mary) of a great grandfather is related and we wondered if a DNA test could shed any light on this. I'm confused as Sarah's relationship is through her mother and her father, whereas Mary is through her father and his father - it would be simpler I think if it were purely through maternal or paternal line. Has any one any thoughts on this, if Mary & Sarah did a DNA test would it show if they were related?
    Mary_Sarah.JPG
     
  2. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    An autosomal DNA test would be the one to try here, and with 2nd cousins I think there is a pretty good chance that this will show if Sarah and Mary are related or not. We don't inherit DNA from all our ancestors, so it's possible to be related and not share matching DNA, but the closer the relationship the less likely this is to happen.
     
  3. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Gender is irrelevant because autosomal DNA is inherited by both sons and daughters from both their mothers and fathers.

    How could I have made this clearer in my DNA Special newsletter? I wrote in the first paragraph of the article What test should you be considering that "atDNA is inherited and passed on by both males and females". What more should I have done?

    Note: the table in the same newsletter shows the chance of a match when two cousins test at Ancestry - and for 2nd cousins it's virtually 100%.
     
  4. Pauline

    Pauline LostCousins Megastar

    Slightly less for a half blood 2nd cousin, presumably, which I think is what we may be talking about here, but still pretty good. My match with a half blood 2nd cousin is more like a 3rd cousin match.
     
  5. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    I have a match with a 3rd cousin who is estimated to be a 4th-6th cousin (Ancestry's estimation), because he is technically a half cousin (me descended from a son of my g-g-grandfather's first marriage; him through the second).

    And on the same side of the family my father has a 2nd cousin (different cousin from above), who Ancestry estimates is actually a 5th - 8th cousin, which is another half cousin - from the same two sets of relationships: my g-g-grandfather's first and second marriages!

    I have been in contact with both, and the relationships are crystal clear, so I figure the "half" portion is why Ancestry's estimations are so far out!
     
  6. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Someone who is a half cousin will, on average, share half as much DNA as someone who is a full cousin. By contrast when you go from the (say) 2nd cousin to 3rd the amount of shared DNA is divided by 4. (See this chart on the ISOGG wiki.)

    So no, the fact that they're half cousins wouldn't necessarily account for the differences in Ancestry's estimates, certainly not in the second case. But Ancestry's estimates are an approximation for the sake of convenience - what really matters is how much DNA is shared. These are the statistics that should be quoted in discussions on this forum, not Ancestry's very broad classification.

    However when looking at the ISOGG table it's important to remember that the figures are averages: how much DNA we inherit from each of our maternal grandparents, and from each of our paternal grandparents is random, and the same applies further of the tree. The smaller the average amount of shared DNA, the greater the variance - if all 5th cousins shared precisely 3.32cM, as shown in the ISOGG table, matches between 5th cousins wouldn't show up at all. The matches that do show up are the ones where, due to chance, the amount of shared DNA is greater than average.

    There is another factor that affects the statistics - some people will related in multiple ways, and in some populations the gene pool will be limited because of repeated inter-marriage. Someone might appear to a be a 4th cousin when in fact they're a 9th cousin 1000 times over!

    In my family tree there's evidence that people often picked mates from other parishes, whether because they were aware of the dangers of interbreeding, or simply because it gave them a much wider choice. Has anyone else seen a similar pattern in their tree?
     
  7. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    Not that I've noticed Peter - but I do unfortunately have a few instances of places where the bride and groom share the same surname before they're married, often because they're some degree of cousin...
     
  8. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Were they in communities that were isolated geographically, socially, or culturally?
     
  9. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    Well, the one in my direct line was a pair of my Dutch Jewish ancestors, so there is an element of marrying within the religious community. Other than that, I'm not completely sure - one family group that intermarried a lot lived in and around Wisbech, Cambridgeshire and the other that I've discovered that intermarried lived in and around Minsterworth, Gloucestershire.

    I am not familiar enough with the terrain of those two places to comment on isolation - one group at one point where Non-Conformists (the one around Wisbech), but I don't think that had anything to do with it, since that family group at one point lived in London and Surrey before moving into Cambridgeshire - that group did also intermarry within a group of other families which I think ties in with the Non-Conformist period. I haven't really discovered anything else in my research so far that would suggest any other social or cultural isolation.
     
  10. peter

    peter Administrator Staff Member

    Now you've got another angle for your research!
     
  11. jorghes

    jorghes LostCousins Superstar

    Most definitely!
     
  12. AnneC

    AnneC LostCousins Star

    Thank you all for your replies. The half-second cousins involved have decided not to go down the DNA test route - they are sure they are related, but even if they aren't they would remain great friends and help each other with their research.
     

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